UPDATE II 2/20/11 9:34PM: I’ve published a postmortem to this article in which I’ve recounted my experiences since the internet went a little nuts, as well as some reflections on the subject. It can be found here: Controversy Postmortem (Or, How To Stop Worrying and Love Your 15 Minutes)
UPDATE 2/18/11 2:29PM: Holy cow, I was not prepared to go viral over this. A few things I would like to point out to people finding this now:
- I am not making the argument that sexism in industrial began with Combichrist, nor that Combichrist is to blame for it. Rather, I am trying to call attention to the pervasive sexism that often borders on misogyny that has been normalized in the genre. Combichrist’s content is a symptom, not a cause, and I don’t intend to argue otherwise.
- It may take awhile for comments to this article to show up, because I do have a strict moderation policy. However this is not due to any desire to censor dissenting views, but rather is a policy that has been in place for months because some nut decided to start leaving harassing remarks long before this article was written. Comments will be approved as soon as I can get to it!
- Finally, the response to this article (by which I mean approving and dissenting responses) has been overwhelming and, for the most part, inspiring. The people who agree with me and have disseminated the article I thank very much, and the people who have dissented and offered counter-arguments I congratulate for producing well-worded, thoughtful critiques.
I’m actually quite pleased to report that as of this writing, I haven’t had to deal with a single case of ad hominem attacks!Unfortunately this is no longer the case, as upon the video’s director Twittering about my critique, one of his female followers expressed a profound desire to sexually assault me in turn. This could be taken as irony if that’s your thing.
This has been a pretty incredible week when it comes to institutionalized misogyny in industrial. On February 14th, Valentine’s Day, a music video was released by what is arguably the most prominent industrial band active at the moment: Combichrist. The band in question has never been slow to embrace controversy; front man Andy La Plegua, a transplant from Norway to Atlanta, GA, famously donned a shirt with the Confederate flag emblazoned on it for a round of publicity photos (which also featured pubescent-looking models wielding chainsaws), prompting some to call foul. To the best of my knowledge La Plegua never clarified whether he felt one way or the other about what the utilization of a symbol traditionally associated with slavery, civil war and the ongoing internal strife in America. The image in question:
(Note: Flint Arthur, a Southerner himself, went into detail about how objectionable this decision was in his LJ blog: http://flintultrasparc.livejournal.com/40479.html)
Unfortunately, these concerns pale in comparison to the video mentioned above. It is linked below, as I don’t particularly want to go on and on about a controversy and then not show you what the controversy is over. I wouldn’t want it at work, though.
Over time, Combichrist has evolved (or possibly devolved) from a campy rhythmic noise-inspired band featuring people smeared with fake blood into the sole economic powerhouse band in the industrial genre. That they are able to fund a well-produced and professionally-shot music video in a genre where most music videos are low-budget and involve band members staring wistfully into the distance at an old car factory should tell you something of what they’ve been able to pull off. Yet if you watch this video, a slick production that likely took many, many hours of work to create, and you are left with a distinct sense of discomfort, it likely means you’ve noticed the inherent message: Beating and humiliating woman makes you a tough guy.
I understand that making such a statement about the video’s message might seem willfully inflammatory. However this is a video that involves no plot of note aside from the band members brutalizing two women, forcing them to strip at gunpoint, and blatantly intimidating them. There is no effort whatsoever made at depicting these kinds of activities as bad things to do. Instead, the video’s aim is clearly to depict the band as a bunch of hardcore badasses, and beating women is just part of what makes them so awesome. It should worry any fan of industrial who cares about any humanitarian issues whatsoever to see the most popular band in the genre making such a disgusting statement.
I’ve argued with a lot of people about what I’ve seen as the rise of misogyny in the industrial scene, as well as the passive acceptance of racist ideology in its mainstream. When it comes to Combichrist, most people with a decent head on their shoulders that defend the band usually cite their commercial success and the access they give to new fans of the industrial genre. I’m generally of the opinion that if new fans are only attracted to a genre by the aesthetic of mindless violence and hatred towards women, then the genre could probably do just fine without them. The most important and dangerous argument I’ve heard, however, is that the band doesn’t actually believe in any of these things and they’re simply capitalizing on them to sell records. While it may be true that Combichrist does not write songs and record videos that are blatantly misogynistic while nodding their heads along at how right they are on the subject, intention does not excuse them from the effect their music has. In fact, it might actually be worse if they’re seizing upon messages which they do not believe in but they know will sell, because that means they’re simply tapping into a deep undercurrent of woman-hating that already existed in the genre. I can’t think of many more damning verdicts on the genre’s inherent view of equality when people cheer along to songs about beating and killing women without stopping for one moment to think of what they’re cheering about.
I don’t actually believe that views like this are new. There’s been projects in the past which have varyingly hinted at misogyny (:wumpscut:’s constant use of hentai samples and songs about hating his mother) or outright embraced it (Navicon Torture Technologies’ entire career), but this is the first time a major band has poured so much time and money into such a repulsive glorification of the subject. It is a dark day when, as of this writing, the video has been viewed 11,742 times and of the six pages of Youtube comments, exactly three are critical of its portrayal of women. Some highlights of the rest of the comments include:
“Combichrist isn’t the music.. IT IS RELIGION!”
“All I have to say is.. FUCK YEAH!”
“COMBICHRIST ARMY FULL FOCE!!!!!!!!” (sic)
“GIVE US THE UNCENSORED VERSION! Goddamn title cards popping up every few seconds. Can’t even enjoy the video.”
“No more pissing around the subject! Good creation guys!”
That last one is the one that disturbs me the most. What subject exactly is the band no longer pissing around? That women are there for nothing but pistol-whipping and degrading? Is this what this music has come to? What started off so long ago as a transgressive, subversive, radical challenging of societal norms has now turned into something resembling a hybrid of an Insane Clown Posse concert and an Alabama courthouse. I don’t know about the rest of you, but this regressive dumbing down and willful glorification of base hatred and patriarchal dominance is exactly the opposite of what I joined the industrial subculture for. I’m extremely angry and disappointed by what it has become.
Thus Spoke Mr. Pathogen 
Watching violent movies or playing violent video games does not “make” me violent
Reading the Bible does not make me Christian
Liking Wagner does not make me a Nazi
You are entitled to your reasonably well explained opinion, but well explained or no, your sociological conclusions are dubious. Present evidence that LaPlegua’s intentions are what you believe them to be and I will never buy another Combichrist ticket or album again.
While as an anthropologist I do respect the desire to see empirical evidence of intention, my main point isn’t that Combichrist intends to cultivate an atmosphere of sexism. Andy’s intentions are actually tertiary to the main problem, that being the success of sexist imagery as a band’s driving aesthetic speaks of a much deeper problem than the band getting away with it.
I disagree with the assessment of the video completely. After watching the video, I did not make the connections with misogyny that Mr. Pathogen assumes we’ll all make.
The video is certainly extremely violent, but the violence is not only against women. There certainly is violence against them—they are brutalized and forced to strip at gunpoint, as Mr. Pathogen says. But, if you watch, there is actually more violence done to men than to women in this video. Four men are killed by point blank shootings. Only one woman is killed. Claiming that more violence is done to women is therefore claiming that being threatened and shoved is worse than being shot in the face. The women are more sexually humiliated (forced to strip and dance.) Even if we take that into consideration though, we still have to believe that being threatened and sexually humiliated is worse than being shot to death to conclude that more violence is done to women. However, I reject that the movie is about violence against men as well. The movie is simply about violence. I do not think it is making a point specifically about violence against either gender.
Another point I disagree on is that the movie is only about the abuse of women. There is a plot. The story is of a deal, probably a drug deal, gone wrong, and the resulting fight over the goods. But there is more. Mr. Pathogen at no point in his article mentions the actual lyrical content of the song. It would hardly be fair to judge the content of a music video without considering the context of the actual lyrics. The song itself is obviously not about misogyny at all. It is about self loathing, powerlessness, and being forced to behave in a way you do not want and wish you could change. Even just realizing that, the movie takes on a whole different tone. This song is not glorifying male violence. It is making a tragedy of the tough guy character singing it, just as the actual movie is a violent tragedy. The singer is saying that he hates what he is, he knows what he’s doing is wrong, but he cannot stop it. This video is not depicting the band as a bunch of badasses, it is depicting them as a bunch of pathetic, helpless, monsters.
This makes further sense if we consider the album the song is from. The whole theme of Making Monsters is of being unwillingly forced to become a monstrosity. Let’s put the pieces together: We have movie showing horrible atrocities, set to a song about self loathing and helplessness, from an album that talks about how our culture is shaping people into monsters. That all adds up to me. I do not see anything specifically about gender here.
We can cherry pick and find gender issues in anything. For example, I could plausibly write an article about how this exact same video is about how young men are being turned into monsters that abuse women by our culture. That would be much more plausible, because it requires us to ignore less parts of the video to be plausible than it being about women. Would I be any more right? I don’t know.
Combichrist is a shock effect band. If they were really into preaching misogyny, it would be more blatant. Almost all of their music is hateful and violent, but it will take a lot of evidence to convince me that their hatred is directed at women any more than at anything else. There may well be misogyny in Industrial, but I am far from convinced that this music video is an example of it.
“If they were really into preaching misogyny, it would be more blatant.”
Jeepers. How much more blatant does LaPlegua have to get?
“Almost all of their music is hateful and violent, but it will take a lot of evidence to convince me that their hatred is directed at women any more than at anything else.”
How about a sampling of lyrics, to start with?
From “Shut Up and Swallow”
You fucking parasite
Feeding off my voice like a leech
Sucking me dry
Use your head
Hope you’re gagging in your throat
Hope you gag and choke
Your pale little face turning blue
If you want it in your ass as I spit in your face
Face down on the floor holding you by your neck
Do you feel like a wreck?
Well that’s life, kiddo
Now shut up and swallow
Shut up and swallow
You’ll feel it from within as I work my way out
Such a pretty girl, but such a dirty mouth
From “Give Head If You Got It”
all teen school girls you know that you want it
give head if you got it
all you dirty sluts you know that you want it
give head if you got it
all you feminist cunts you know that you want it
give head if you got it
From “This Shit Will Fuck You Up” [words recited by a computerized robotic female voice]
I am a bitch
How do you want me?
From behind?
Or on my knees?
I am a slut
Please hold me down
True, LaPlegua’s lyrics are all pretty hateful and violent. You’ll get no argument from me there.
But doesn’t the vein of violent misogyny, and the rape/violation imagery (both the stuff against women and the non gender-specific murder-by-fisting type stuff) that runs through Combichrist’s output seem to go extra deep?
I think it’s arguable that those lyrics often seem more intimate, and more specific than most of the “God Bless [A Whole Bunch of Serial Killers]” glorifying of violence and the and vague, all-encompassing “FUCK YOU WORLD/BUDDIES/SOCIETY GRAAAHHHHH BLOOD FISTS GUNS DRUGS STOMP STOMP” stuff. No?
Admittedly, I’ve had the misfortune of attending a sold-out Combichrist show myself– that experience may have colored my perception. I watched in despair and confusion as a wide variety of drunken, hollering, chest-beating thugs –both on and offstage– seemed to feel completely within their rights to grope and leer at women whose reactions ranged from nervously giggling to inebriated acceptance to “get the hell away from me, creep”. Despite wearing loose concealing clothing and hanging back from the front of the stage, I got manhandled, and later shoved, out of nowhere, by big drunk dudes twice my size. From what Andy himself has supposedly said, there was plenty more entitled grabassing going on backstage as well. (I’m not at all surprised by that, or shocked. Nor am I trying to smear the guy. But I do think, contextually, that it’s worth making a note of that.)
What I’m trying to say is, without any doubt in my mind, is that LaPlegua’s attitude and by extention, those of his fans, seem ESPECIALLY alienating and belittling of women to me. And before a Combichrist apologist shows up and say “hold on, LOTS of chicks dig the band!” can I just say? The fact that there are plenty of (masochistic?) women eagerly cheering Combichrist on, and encouraging this kind of subjugating, abusive behavior, makes the whole environment MORE disturbing to me, not less.
I’m not that much younger than LaPlegua, and I remember what the goth/alt/industrial/noise scene used to be like. Sure, it’s always had a feral, mindless streak. But it was never a full-on frat party, you know? There was plenty of stompy, angsty rage, but there was also basic respect for everyone’s humanity. Whereas now, I’m not so sure that’s true, anymore. At least not where Combichrist is holding court. It just feels like a whole lot of intense and toxic othering. The misogyny is just one especially upsetting aspect of that more systemic problem.
I’m not for censorship, of course. Listen to what you want. Like what you want. But keep in mind a LOT of folks that are supposedly part of your very same scene do NOT like it. As one of them, I was grateful and relieved to see DJ Pathogen’s thoughtful and balanced critique. Thank you for that, man.
Woops. AddenDUMB: that link I included to a supposed statement by LaPlegua might have been slander. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2205140584&topic=3834 Should’ve checked more closely before including that particular bit o’ hearsay. Apologies for that.
While there are a few points I could nitpick if I had time to write a longer response, in general I don’t disagree with what you are saying here. I’ll bow out of the discussion because I don’t really know enough to contribute much more. My initial post’s point was simply that I thought making a claim of misogyny off that particular video was a stretch. What you talk about in your response to me is much better supporting evidence of misogyny. I’d posit that’s it is more general cultural misogyny than something specific to combichrist, but that’s where I don’t have enough info to really say. I suppose in the greater context of thinking the band misogynist, the video could be seen that way. I’m still not convinced that things like those song lyrics were written out of a hatred for women rather than just as fan service. You wouldn’t believe the number of women I’ve heard talking about how much they love the song fuck machine as it supposedly describes how they like to experience sex (they are submissive I would assume.)
Anyway, I’d warn again that if you are looking to find misogyny, you will whether is is actually there or not. Proceed with caution.
I’ve also written a reflective summary to this article, the link to which you can now find at the top.
Hi there,
Hey, I actually subscribed to your RSS feed 🙂 I agree that IT’S NOT FUNNY ANYMORE. Industrial was sort-of intelligent criticism of the industrial society back then, it’s never been originally in support or racism or other lowly ways of life, and it doesn’t make any sense to try to capitalize on such disgusting themes…. Is that what bands are supposed to do when they run out of ideas? I think not.
right on man. i agree with you completely.
Hay- found this blog from a retweet by a follower!
I first might take issue with attributing a “message” to anything Combichrist does. They are the definition of “exploitation” but if you mean that people may “take” a message, intended or otherwise, from their work then I’ll meet you half way. People like to read into things that look artistic or are popular.
To that end I’m not quite sure I agree with your analysis at all, though your argument is well presented. I watched this video expecting to see some sort of grind-house style beat-down. What I saw was men being cruel to each other in order to “posses women” and eventually falling victim to their own misguided mentality. I’ll note that the kill ratio here is 4-1 (men to women) and that with the exception of the implied “Shove” of a one of the girls back on to the bed no actual violence against women occurs in this video. The implied subjugation of women ends with men… in their desire to be “top dog” shooting each other. Invariably a woman gets caught in the crossfire.
Nothing about this video implies its “Good” to behave like these men (they all die) and nothing implies its “cool” to beat women (the women are portayed as innocent victims, and nothing implies they “deserve” this treatement).
Did we watch the same video?
I think we agree that context is important in considering any message. While there are scenes which, when isolated, appear misogynistic they, when taken as part of the whole, lose their venom. The entire video is really just about a bunch of pathetic tough guys who fall victim to their own attitudes. Hay- the supreme court doesn’t take “obscenity” out of context of the whole, so neither should we!
Anywho- maybe there was something in the “deleted scenes” like a andy saying, “I’m going to beat this girl up because she is inferior” or something- but I think you have the exact opposite message, though I hesitate to say intent, of the video here.
Cheers! Even if I disagree I love your blog.
Well said, Michael. In fact, I made a post last night saying the exact same thing. As of an hour or so ago, it has been hidden or deleted. We’ll see if your’s survives any better.
Disregard, my previous comment is visible now.
I wasn’t really expecting the response that this article got, and my blog already had a strict moderation policy due to harassment by a crazy person months ago. I have absolutely no intention to censor dissenting views to my article, but it will take some time for me to approve comments. Sorry for the worry!
The way I always saw it Industrial would always attract the Meatheads that were available compared to Goth where they’d stick out like sore thumbs. As Industrial moved away from its orginal area of art-noise to a ‘credible’ alternative to a shifting rock mealstrom it was thereby giving potential cretins a choice between experimenting with that, or forms of Metal. For mechanic with poor attempt at moustache and lots of denim read ‘person proud to call themslves a Rivethead.’
I think it’s an unfair generalization to say that industrial was destined for thoughtless chauvinism. I’ve enjoyed the friendships of countless extremely intelligent and progressive individuals that have grown out of involvement in the industrial community. Furthermore, some other very important and popular bands in the genre’s recent history have had very progressive messages. I don’t think VNV Nation, whether one may enjoy them or not, has ever embarked upon a “meat-headed” thematic approach, and Stromkern is often quite blatantly progressive in their lyrics. The current flag-bearers do not necessarily dictate the opinions of the whole.
Interesting to note that the directors are known for other controversial material. Ward is a photographer of fetish photography. I’ve dealt with Teo first hand and he does have an obsession with things that are controversial, over the top, and shock art. Which leads me to wonder how much they influenced the video or whether the band deliberately sought out directors with these associations. However, that doesn’t dismiss the band for their association to such material. I think to say they were attempting to portray something deep is questionable. Didn’t Rammstein already do a video where the bandmates turned on each other? Manson already did a video of him beating a blonde to death. I think it’s yet another shock art performance. Sad, because they were awesome live…and I know one of the band members from years ago (and he was a decent human being in those days).
I fully agree that Spencer’s reaction was a complete knee jerk. I am interested in knowing if you feel industrial music is more sexist then society in general, and what solution would you propose. I am also interested in why you feel this is a new development. While the video in question included violence against women, the overall feel was you reap what you sow (unlike some of Combi’s other songs) and at least on some level critical of such behavior. Mr. 44 from the good old days is far worse. On the less dancey front whitehouse, non, some revolting cocks album covers, half of Nick Cave’s back catalog… I personally don’t think the music has become more sexist, or even that sexism is a large part of the music but would like to hear more of your thoughts.
Your article reads like hyperbole and appears to miss the point. While the video lacks real plot, it does capture your eye and honestly, if you are making art without offending anyone or causing a stir then you do not make what true art
ists make. True “artists” will offend ou and honestly, it seems more like a reflection of the world and what ego can turn you into. It does not seem like a glorification of an act or cautionary tale either. It is just the manifestion of something like Devil’s Rejects mixed into the context of a music video.
Infact, offensive delights me as it does people in general
… and in the end, things of this nature will become more common and not less. Just hope intelligent productions can survive the century.
I stumbled upon this article because I am also friends with the director. However, I cannot place my name to this comment because I do not wish to lose his friendship.
I am disappointed in his decision to direct such a video. I’ve no love for Combichrist, and have always seen them as vulgar ‘shock’ artists – a “Marilyn Manson for the goggle wearing crowd”, but it was Chad’s involvement in the video that distresses me the most. He is a man who spends a good deal of time photographing and creating visions of women who have appropriated power and strength in their dark, subversive sensuality. I have never seen women depicted in such a poor way in Chad’s work.
I still think he’s a great artist and an all-round sweet guy. But I really hope he doesn’t elect to do more work of this caliber, because it would be hard for me to continue to respect any man who would.
Thanks for your remarks! I am friends with a few eminently respectable women who have worked with Mr. Ward in the past, but beyond that I know nothing of his work. If this is an aberration, then I’d hope he can see it’s not one that was particularly well-received instead of resorting to knee-jerk rejection of criticism.
Just wanted to let you know I blogged a response to your article. You don’t have to post it to your comments I just thought I’d let you know what I said.
as posted on http://darklyinclined.tumblr.com/
“A Brave New Era of Misogyny: Or more on the Industrial Boys Club.
This is an interesting article and I’m very glad Mr.Pathogen brought up the topic of misogyny in the industrial scene. It’s no secret that industrial is a boys club, most of the bands (especially the successful ones) are comprised of mainly men thrashing about in fatigues. But the lack of women (or diversity at all really) in the genre isn’t the end of it. The scene is full of images of scantily clad women used to push events, shows and sell merch. This isn’t a-typical in music, but for a genre that boasts a largely “fuck the system” and almost punk attitude it sure does give in to the systematic belief that sex (especially sexualized women) sells.
Where I do believe and agree with him that it is pretty irresponsible of one of the most popular bands of the genre to perpetuate and even seemingly condone this behavior the problem is much bigger than some music video. It’s deeply rooted in the fan base who have responded to and encouraged misogynistic behavior by buying into and even making light of it. It seems like alot of women in the fan base are just as misogynistic as the men. In my experience alot of them have anti feminist attitudes. I’m not talking about the way they dress either, because by all means if you want to parade around in neon booty shorts and a matching plastic corset please do. What bothers me is that there seems to be an almost militant reaction (from men and women) when the issue of misogyny is addressed. Maybe I just have a bad taste in my mouth from my brief stint with a self proclaimed rivet head who liked to tell stupid women jokes? But it’s been almost 4 years since and there has been very little evidence to make me feel otherwise. As a feminist I feel largely alienated and repelled, unfortunately that (and terrible EBM) is what deters me from the genre.”
I was moaning about this the other day funnily enough – misogyny is the new access virus I think. I am a “scene” DJ and a feminist and am finding it harder to find music which isn’t all “yo bitch suck mah dick” and “wah you left me I hates you” and often on the same album (faderhead). Suicide Commando can also be bad -though I’d say a lot of his stuff is largely general misanthropy than just misogyny. Misogyny is lazy and irritates me as well as songs about sex – too much ‘industrial’ goes “pom pom pom pom “autotuned female voice saying sexy sexy sexy times” pom pom pom pom” these days. I think it’s the laziness that offends me as much as the misogyny.
What is interesting is that I find the lyrics and styling of the music are in fact at odds with a lot of the people I know many of whom are not rampant misogynists and believe in equality. I disagree with the comment earlier about industrial fans being meatheads as that is simply not true in my experience. There are morons in every scene, I’ve met some very sexist goths, Indie people and dance fans. I’ve also come across a lot of decent people.
I agree, I know a lot of really nice and smart people who make pretty smart music in the scene. But, like I said, a lot of fans just seem to respond more to the not so smart stuff. It’s leaving us with a very simple and uninteresting genre which is sad because at it’s roots It was an interesting experimental art form.
In reality what it comes down to is people taking this video as an opportunity to trash a successful band. This video is just that, a video, its entertainment. it is obviously an homage to grindhouse cinema, and a fun opportunity for the band to act out characters that are probably an amalgam of all the Tarintino movies they saw.
Its not combichrist’s job to be the spokesperson for ‘teh scene’, if they want to make a violent video they can. You don’t like it? then absolutely trash it, and speak out your opinion. But don’t be silly and act like ‘industrial’ is really full of sensitive, thought provoking artists looking to reach people while hiding beneath their tough exterior. Thats nonsense.
Also, all this terror about bringing in a woman hating violent element to the scene is just hyperbole, and really, its beating a dead horse that we’ve heard for decades. If the scene was going to become saturated with ex-metalheads, looking to smack around girls, and party hard, then ministry would have brough them in a long long time ago.
Besides all of this, the only ‘responsibilities’ of a band, or of an artist of ANY size is to making something that makes them happy, not you, not me, not anyone else. Make something you as the creator loves and enjoys. To do anything else would be false, and leave a person hollow.
Eddie, I suggest you read past the title of the article next time.
i read the whole thing, and the comments.
perhaps i should have shortened my response, or directed my comments with some ” @ ” ‘s
I was more less commenting towards comments, such as @nadi above saying that it was “irresponsible” of combichrist to make this video. Which is just silly, combichrist started out with ” how do you want me, from behind, or on my knees” and ” this shit will fuck you up”
obviously their formula worked for them. Why change it up.
asking combichrist to stop making music like they do because they got succesfull is like asking Coca Cola to change their forumula because people got diabities.
( horrible spelling errors above, but im typing at an odd angle and my wrists hurt, so i don;t want to fix it )
What type of feminist are you? The term covers a wide range of positions. Most people in the scene I have met would not meet the approval of a typical academic second wave feminist, yet would probably get along with Paglia.
Regardless of any actual sexism most ‘Feminist’ will be put off by things that a fair proportion of industrial musicians and fans embrace or at least are ok with – s&m, pornographic imagery (or actual pornography), violent imagery (usually as a criticism of society) sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, absolute artistic freedom… Most women I know in the scene are also put off by academic ‘Feminists” tendency to put forward fairly restrictive views of what is acceptable and what is not. You average ‘I want to be a pro domm, strong willed, hard drinking artist’ women in the scene is not going to identify with a movement they associate with being told that all sex is rape, the performance art they do is wrong (as the nudity, fetish, whatever is demeaning to women) and that they are victims. Any music related sub-culture is going to attracted mostly young men, women for the most part don’t bond with and over music in our society. I am sure there are other reasons as well…
As for Combichrist – as I have said before – I can find much worse examples of sexism in ’80s and early ’90s industrial. While some people may find the video to be sexist, I agree with the people who pointed out that there was more violence towards men in the video (though nobody ever seems to care about that) I also don’t feel that the lyrics of the song, or the narrative of the video had a particular focus on women. By focusing on a video that is devoid of any actual meaning beyond “I am angry, the world is a violent horrible place where bad things happen”, mixed with some exploitative pictures, we are giving a talentless hack way to much credit.
Industrial has always been distasteful, if you like your art unambiguous, or are offended by depictions of violence and or nudity, it is the wrong genre to be a fan of
Really I consider myself a feminist by default more than I apply to a particular wave of feminism, because ultimately I just believe in equality and challenging social inequities. I also didn’t try to place restrictions on what people should do and I find the handful of responses in which people felt I was doing so to be pretty strange. If this scene has gotten to a point where a single dissenting opinion can be construed as someone trying to clamp down on certain behaviors, then the reactionary regressiveness is much worse than I’d have thought. That, however, has not been the case for the most part; a vast majority of the discussion on the topic I’ve been party to has been very welcoming of the opportunity to have a civil exchange of views on the topic. If there’s one good thing that has come out of this video, it’s that it made people stand up and actually think about a subject. I highly doubt this was the intention but now we as a subculture are forced to face a problem we’ve been collectively ignoring for a long time.
I also find the argument that people who don’t like controversy should get out to be unhelpful. Telling people to go away if they don’t hold the same values as you is the easiest way to sterilize your chosen culture of any potential for critical thought, and I assume I don’t have to describe why that’s a bad thing. A scene that can’t handle internal discontent is one that is well and truly fucked, in a way that goes far beyond a spate of mediocre music being popular within it.
as a goth queer polyamorous sex worker who identifies strongly as a feminist, i:
1. think combichrist is doing some terrible things for their genre/our scene, and i commend mr. pathogen for noticing and saying something about it. i have been doing my best to fight misogyny just on the club level for a while now and many people are argumentative or not receptive, macho-ly interrupting my words to tell me that there is no problem, that what i am perceiving and what i am frustrated with actually does not exist and that my feelings are not valid. these comments are a good reflection of that.
2. think that you are very mislead about feminists. i guess that is pretty normal..
Don’t talk about the sexism in ‘the scene’,please. After attending Combichrist and Hocico gigs recently,all I see is a gaggle of groupies waiting for some sweet EBM loving from these guys. Wearing goggles,being covered in tattoos,being tritely pierced and owning a head full of whacky hair doesn’t make a lack of clothing more alt.
Re the video…at best,it’s a 5 minute heist movie,at worst;quite boring. Not sleazy,not sexy,just a grainy attempt to achieve the same (15 minute) notoriety as Rammstein’s ‘Pussy’.
Does anyone remember when industrial didn’t have to exploit rape culture and use the same shock value tricks of hollywood action movies to get anywhere? I do. I’ve always felt a little ill when listening to the lyrics of combichrist (when forced to in a club) and this video didn’t surprise me one bit. I must say it is refreshing that there’s an industrial music loving blogger other than me that cares about the issues.
Reading all of the “but dudes are being abused, too- POOR MEN” and “feminism means letting women be abused and being violent towards them in videos because I have women friends and I know what they want” posts just leaves me sad. I’d like to think that our society has gotten better since the early days of industrial when bands like skinny puppy and neubauten were tearing shit up talking about this kind of bullshit 30ish years ago. But perhaps I am wrong…
And, I’m a female assigned queer genderqueer feminist into the fetish and S& M scenes. Anyone thinking that the portrayal of nonconsensually beating and hurting women has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with consensual bdsm is lost and frankly shouldn’t have any part in the scene until they’re more versed on consent.
And dudes, if someone’s telling you something’s mysoginistic, shut up for a second and listen to them, rather than jumping all over things trying to defend… whoever you’re trying to defend. You might learn something.
Thank you for saying so clearly and articulately what for a year or two I had just been thinking to myself quietly.
I linked to your post in this http://industrialantioppression.blogspot.com/2011/09/misogyny-in-industrial-music.html
As both an industrial DJ for the last 21 years now and holding honours degrees in Criminology and another in Sociology [conc. Women’s Studies] i can’t say enough how pleased I am to see your response to this blatant acceptance even defense of clearly misogynistic lyrics and images. I know this is an older post, but as short as attention spans seem these days, in particular those online, I feel this issue was raised, responded to and then left alone without resolution or progress. I could start listing examples of why promoting and supporting these sorts of publicly available images and words can contribute to harm, but I hadn’t thought anyone would need to. Sadly though, reading through the comments though it looks as if even the most basic tenet of social functioning has been lost in the realm of ‘common knowledge’. So basically this: regardless of intention, when song lyrics or video published for public consumption is overwhelmingly taken to promote or put forward certain ideals or concepts, then the intention in reality doesn’t matter. Nor does it matter how ‘nice’ someone is claimed to be; ignorance is no excuse, nor do i think anyone can write the lyrics that have been written and truly be ignorant, or really think of it as humour or a joke of any kind. This means regardless of supposed intention, Combichrist ARE responsible for the OVERWHELMING impact and offense what they have ‘put out there’ has produced. Won’t anyone but the few of us actually start holding them accountable? Don’t play the material, don’t go to shows, don’t by the merchandise. We are as accountable for what we do as for what we choose not to do. And THANK YOU very much for your post on the subject, truly.
-DJ leslie
Ottawa, Canada